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Smak Dem Christians Down.

Written by Vicelin on April 29, 2009
This is probably the calmest rant you will ever read from me. It might not even qualify as a rant ._.

In my sociology class, we had a very short debate involving the foundation of America being based on Christianity, and that because of this foundation it is justified that our currency say "God", and that it is justified to uphold Christian morals in our laws. The reason it was so short was because one boy said "but this country was founded on Christian beliefs, so gay marriage shouldn't be allowed", and one lady said "no, it should be because no matter what this country was founded on, we have separation of church and state", and then the teacher said, "well, it was founded on Christianity, so it makes sense", and then that was it.

I didn't even bother to say anything after that, even though I had planned on it. But that debate pretty much ended with that one sentence. I was kind of annoyed.

I doubt that anyone will deny that without Christianity, America would not be what it is today. But we have to remember why our founding fathers and the original colonies came here in the first place: to escape persecution. Christian persecution, to be specific. Their goal, and wish, was for this country to have complete separation of church and state so that it would not end up like the England of the time.

It is also important to remember that our founding fathers were Deists. Merriam Webster describes Deism as:

"…system of thought advocating natural religion, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe”


Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington all exercised Deist tendencies at some point in recorded history. The most important case being that they were opposed to the Bible. Yes, they do believe in God, but also that He does not concern himself with our daily lives, and does not communicate with us directly, not by supernatural means nor scripture.

The logic seems to be that because a majority of the original colonies and founders were Christian, that must mean that this country was founded directly on their religious beliefs. I would go far enough to call this a fallacy. First of all, this country was founded for the purpose of separating religious institution and beliefs from law entirely, hence the emphasis on separation of church and state, so where exactly would religious beliefs come into play here? Second of all, it makes the assumption that all sense of morality derives from religious beliefs, which isn’t true, since it was the absence of religion in morality which allowed our founding fathers to even think of separation of church and state to begin with. Separation of church and state would not be possible without the ability to have a working moral compass outside of religious influence.

From Encyclopedia Britannica:
"The nature of the new common law was at first much influenced by the principles of Roman law”


So our common law (ex, institution of a jury and the right to speedy trial) derived from Roman law. So since our country also appears to be founded on Roman laws, does that mean it is actually founded on Pagan beliefs? Interesting :o

The declaration of independence, which is what many people use to defend the stance that our country was founded on Christianity, does in fact mention 'God'. But there again is another fallacy. Does the 'God' in the DoI specifically translate to the 'Christian God'? Nope. The Declaration of Independence itself says that it is describing:

"the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God"


The Declaration of Independence was also written before the States had even been founded. In summary, this country was founded on one simple thing: freedom. Need I say more?

And, wow, I just had some major Deja Vu. That was cool.

On a lighter note, the entire debate in a nutshell:




God that cracks me up.

(Please don't be offended if you're Christian xD...for the record, I have absolutely no religious affiliation what-so-ever (and no, I'm not an atheist either), I'm like a...neutral country during wartime. I think it is possible that there isn't a higher power, but it is also possible that there is. Now that I've probably left you all mindfucked, I'll end this blog).

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Vicelin

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April 29, 2009
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Wed Apr 29, 2009 07:42 AM +

Vicelin said: (Please don't be offended if you're Christian xD...for the record, I have absolutely no religious affiliation what-so-ever (and no, I'm not an atheist either), I'm like a...neutral country during wartime. I think it is possible that there isn't a higher power, but it is also possible that there is. Now that I've probably left you all mindfucked, I'll end this blog).


I went to a Christian school, I did all that shit... But I was always like that. All the teachers bitched on me to be more "Godlike" and I was like "Back off, bitches~!" and yah...

I'm apparently a Christian, or so everybody thinks, but inside I don't really care. I'm a "neutral country", as you said :P

 
 
Wed Apr 29, 2009 08:06 AM +

Yay for neutral countries :D

I was raised Christian. But then I had so much fun learning about other religions, and began wondering how any one religion could possibly be more valid than the other, and...yea, that was it for spirituality o_o;

 
 
Wed Apr 29, 2009 02:03 PM +

I'm always amazed at how each of your blog sounds like an essay.
No offense or anything.
xD

 
 
Wed Apr 29, 2009 03:08 PM +

hey i'm christian =O

but i believe that everyone is right in a way. like the blind men touching only one art of the elephant, all the religons are touching only one part and aren't quite getting the BIGGER PICTURE

 
 
Wed Apr 29, 2009 03:21 PM +

Each of the founding fathers believed that Christianity was ridiculous and should be abolished. Benjamin Franklin said that light houses were more useful than churches. The country was NOT founded on Christianity, people just believe it so because it's just such a huge aspect of American culture. :/

I believe this country was founded based on freedom, and it was primarily because people were pissed at the taxes the British implemented. :3

 
 
Wed Apr 29, 2009 07:21 PM +

Dee~ yea, that's pretty much it xD

David~ yea, I really don't see how people come to that conclusion. It being a huge part of our culture doesn't mean the country was founded on it. And it was founded on freedom, I don't understand why people insist on bringing religion into the mix :\

 
 
Wed Apr 29, 2009 07:40 PM +

*lol* Well it sounds like your teacher was uninformed too. This sort of thing needs to be taught better in schools.

 
 
Wed Apr 29, 2009 07:41 PM +

Slightly off topic:Though many of my beliefs are the same as those of most Christians, most Christians wold spurn me as a heretic :P For instance, my belief that God actually does want to have individual contact and relationship with all of His children is a little too much for most people. When I say "I talked to God today," most people look at me like I'm a complete lunatic.

Back on topic: Though I personally believe that homosexual relationships are against God's law, I do not believe that they should be illegalized. The laws of man have never conformed completely to the laws of God or any other religion, and indeed, there is no need to. I believe that the laws of man need to cover the basic principles (Such as the ones that almost every religion agree on) and leave the more complicated matters to the churches and institutions themselves. Though a church may spurn a homosexual person, there is no need, and indeed no right for the authorities to take any action or incur any punishment upon the person. If, indeed, God truly does exist, then He can take care of it in the end. There's no need for us as "mere" humans to play the just hand of God and decide what His rules are.

P.S. / Edit: After reading the beginning of my post, some of you may think me a blind religious zealot, and that I was born and raised in Christianity and it is the only thing I've ever known. While this is true, I have given much thought to other religions, and I do believe that they can be just as valid as Christianity. In fact, many religions worship the same God as I do, Muslims, Jews, even many Hindus have accepted Jesus as "a god." However, I have had personal encounters with God that no amount of logic or persuasion can explain away or cause me to deny what I have seen and felt. Supernatural things are out there, no matter what those whose minds are bound by logic say.

 
 
Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:24 PM +

I'm not Christian.
But I know very nice people who ARE Christian.
:D

Btw, the blog IS calm. >__<

 
 
Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:33 PM +

I think it's fine to believe that, Rawk. Really, I do. I mean, whose business would it be to call you a heretic or lunatic because of your beliefs? You're not imposing your religion on anyone and telling them to believe what you believe, so people should just live and let live. I let people do what they want as long as it isn't doing any harm mentally or physically to others. It's none of anyone's business to inject their opinion otherwise.

So no, I don't think you are a blind religious zealot. And I do think it is possible that supernatural things are out there. I say that, even though I have had what I think may have been supernatural experiences. But the "may" is what always gets me. They may not have been supernatural experiences at all, so since I have absolutely no evidence telling me that they were supernatural experiences, I don't want to jump to the conclusion that they must have been. So I remain in-between.

 
 
Thu Apr 30, 2009 02:13 AM +

@irawk
And yet, the Koran effectively states that the infidels that do not convert are to be eliminated.

[offtopic]
See, this is what I don't get about religion. All religions start with good fundamentals, and teaches good moral values, but then turn nasty later on when people are supposed to "follow" this religion otherwise can go die in hell. It's the same principle a lot of those TV people you see on Sundays are using. They say, buy my book! or buy my DVD! YOU MUST GET THIS BOOK/DVD/PRODUCT to follow god! <- Why? Why do people go buy this stuff, and think that through buying this, they'll automatically get out of purgatory or something?

It's like indulgences. I just don't get it. Back in the days, Luther raged for reform when he saw Tetzel selling indulgences to the POOR. It wasn't only you that could get out, but the whole family! "When a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs." <- Bs.

Plus, the Church is literally backwards. Pope Pius IX' Syllabus of Errors condemned democracy, liberalism, and scientific discoveries. How the heck could the United States be founded on something that has literally said that democracy was a bad thing?

The United States fell into a huge trench during President George Bush's Presidency because it became a religious country. Things were based off faith alone, and there wasn't any rationality. If you compared to the state of the country to what it was back in the day, I'd say a lot of things are actually worse. It's sad really.
[/offtopic]

What I hate about religion is how people do push it onto other people. They use God as an excuse for their own troubles. Gays should die because God said so. You should buy my DVD because God said so. You should go kill yourself because God said so.

I'm not saying that religious people are complete lunatics, but... it's like racism, if you are raised that way, it's a part of you I suppose. If you were raised to hate people with green hair, chances are, you'll hate people with green hair. Only the exceptional can transcend that primitive failure of human beings.

 
 
Thu Apr 30, 2009 02:21 AM +

See, I don't believe that Hell is the Devil's domain. If what happened in the New Testament is true, and Jesus took all sin upon himself, then Sin (Or whatever else you want to call it) cannot condemn anyone to Hell. I believe that Hell is simply a tool that God created to bring about his bigger picture. I also don't agree with modern "Indulgences" or using God as an "excuse" for anything. If God wants someone to do something, He will tell them directly, as long as they're willing to listen. If they're not, that's their problem, and no one has the right to try to shove it down their throats.

 
 
Thu Apr 30, 2009 02:27 AM +

Yes, some people think that Jesus took Sin out, and so there's no sin. But what if you murder someone? What if it's by accident? That's not a sin?

But how, not why, do you believe that God is just there to listen to everyone? Is that not the same as believing Santa Claus? Is that not the same as believing in Leprechauns?

I don't get it. I just don't get it.

 
 
Thu Apr 30, 2009 02:37 AM +

I didn't say Jesus took sin away, I said he took it upon himself. Murdering someone is still a sin, but it will not condemn you to hell. You will, however, still have to deal with the consequences of your actions in this life, thanks to the laws of Man.

I believe that God is there to be a friend. I know this may sound crazy, but I have literally had conversations with Him. He's just like the best friend I never had. You may think that he's my Imaginary Friend and I just call him God, but he's real. He surprises me all the time, makes me laugh, comforts me when I'm sad, and just hangs out with me.

 
 
Thu Apr 30, 2009 03:58 AM +

Lol, just yesterday I had a debate with my friend (a Christian) over religions and stuff like that, it was pretty fun C:

 

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